tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post5371080492447215705..comments2024-03-27T14:43:28.040+05:30Comments on Musings of Dheeraj Sanghi: Expelling Students for Poor PerformanceDheeraj Sanghihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06367519409840642182noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-22068695098068811452015-07-24T04:43:29.379+05:302015-07-24T04:43:29.379+05:30Sir
Why one should be surprised?You can admit stud...Sir<br />Why one should be surprised?You can admit students based on relaxed criteria but thankfully there is no relaxation criteria in annual exams.This was bound to happen.Few days back i read that students with zero marks in advanced would be admitted to preparatory courses.Do you expect the faculties at these courses to bring them at par with other students in a year's time.<br />This system of relaxation has not only ruined the career of these students but also deprived other students of these valuable resources.<br />RegardsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02242300826038133994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-42766267865125170292015-07-14T16:21:32.781+05:302015-07-14T16:21:32.781+05:30Thank you. Your suggestion for the basis of branch...Thank you. Your suggestion for the basis of branch change looks very good. Students must choose Subject over institution. I would recommend a stop to these branch changes. Students must do some groundwork on what they are interested in. This would enable the institutions to introduce domain specific courses right from I semester so that by third semester they are in a position to take up internship in some other institution or industry. Too much of generality is making them not to have passion for anything.<br />I know cases where few students are choosing Chemical eng even if they are not interested in that just because they want to study in one particular IIT (and dreaming of branch change to CSE). What justification they can do to the subject , how can they be creative if they are not internally interested in that subject?. This is fashion following by students. They should stop being simplistic. Somehow we need to make the system such that students apply themselves right from day 1 and work towards contributing to their field rather than just scoring marks of existing topics.<br />Thank you.sriramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15012338423685424255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-3159092940457566712015-07-14T15:59:06.584+05:302015-07-14T15:59:06.584+05:30@Sriram, The mapping seen on the web is only to de...@Sriram, The mapping seen on the web is only to demonstrate equivalence for the purpose of jobs. There are still a lot of employers and indeed academic institutions (even IIM Ahmedabad) who demand that the performance be measured in terms of percentage, and if the university assigns grades, then it should give a certificate of mapping between CGPA and marks. The grading in IITR is relative, as is the case in most engineering schools across the world. And relative grading does not imply that some have to fail. Relative grading does not even imply that someone has to have a CGPA of 4 or 3 or a very less CGPA. So the statements that we are hearing in the media and seeing on the web are just reflective of the frustration of these 73 students and have very little basis in truth. But I can see that someone who is being asked to leave after putting in so much hard work to get in, will not be giving a coherent statement against himself/herself and the media will also like to highlight plight of these students since that news sell better.<br /><br />There is at least one serious allegation in the media. While the students and parents signed the declaration that they understand poor performance will lead to program termination, the definition of "poor performance" was not communicated to them till the second semester. Now, of course, I have seen a statement from one of the affected student saying that if he knew that they need to get 5.0, he would have worked harder to get 5.0, essentially implying that he deliberately, knowingly and with a plan failed the course, which he wouldn't if he knew the consequences. I don't think IITs should keep such students who don't understand the consequences of failing the course. But having said that, if the definition of "poor" performance was finalised too late, then even though I think it should not have made a difference to the student performance, still the fairness demands that that definition be not used with this batch. (But, this is just an allegation in media. I haven't heard from IITR whether this is true or not.)<br /><br />I am quite intrigued by the fractal academics of IIT Hyderabad, and it appears to be a good innovation.<br /><br />The first year curriculum is primarily dictated by the need of branch change. Otherwise, having one or two department courses in the first year would be easy to adjust, by pushing some of the "broadening the horizon" courses to later semesters. And if we are doing things in the later semesters, the students could be given an option between organic chemistry and something else. I think it is really this need to be seen fair that is at work here. If everyone has to do the same set of courses, then let us what topics will be useful for most number of students and teach those. I would think that branch change to different programs could be based on different set of courses which could be considered an indication of interest and future performance in that discipline. But not many takers of that view. Everyone must be compared with the exact same set of courses for branch change.<br /><br />Thanks for your comments.Dheeraj Sanghihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06367519409840642182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-89983682629676587502015-07-14T15:28:16.584+05:302015-07-14T15:28:16.584+05:30Very refreshing article. Thank you.
Certain articl...Very refreshing article. Thank you.<br />Certain articles refer to the IITR evaluation as 'Relative' and few students are bound to fall below 5. In that case , if this is true and followed by say IITB , then at least few students who had come in top 50 in jee adv will be shown the door. How ridiculous that can be?. I am not sure if this is indeed the case. Appreciate if you could throw some light onto this. What I have seen is a circular on % marks mapped to CGPA posted on the web. This does not talk of relative grading but only absolute. I only hope that relative grading is false information.<br /><br />What I have observed is students are losing interest due to one more factor that I year common subjects where they are made to study same topics that they have studied for JEE. Why do you force a CSe student to go through Organic chemistry in depth?.Overall development theory? . I think we need to come out of this mindset and start introducing a flexible framework so that students will come to know about the subject first before they decide to go deep into it. In this respect , 'Fractal academics' followed by IIT hyderabad looks to be a novel idea. Time for others to see its merits and follow.sriramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15012338423685424255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-90869080409776222552015-07-12T20:16:58.148+05:302015-07-12T20:16:58.148+05:30Thank you for taking up a relevant issue with exce...Thank you for taking up a relevant issue with excellent analysis. The idea of not taking up so many courses in one semester is so usually, successfully , practiced here in European Universities. Even after Bologna Process when many European Master programs are involving more than one country for one Study program and thus results in higher mobility for the students, as they do Fist year in Germany and the Second year in UK, and therefore one has to complete his/her semester course work in a year itself, but then also they give second/third attempt during Semester/Year breaks and help students take a slow path and do it rather with better understanding, clarity and with more confidence. So this practice should be rather more encouraged...if we are really to handle the paradox-"Access alongiwth Excellence" in Higher technical education in India..<br />Prof.O.P.Vyas-Inria,Lille-FRANCEProf.Vyashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00442381664763105316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-79287256292783952552015-07-12T16:42:26.473+05:302015-07-12T16:42:26.473+05:30@Sneh, Without commenting on the IITR decision, si...@Sneh, Without commenting on the IITR decision, since I don't know enough, I will only say that the education in India has been destroyed by such knee jerk reactions. Every time, any educational institute has done something which is politically incorrect (whether right or wrong is not the issue), there have been demands to restrict autonomy, and politicians and bureaucrats have obliged. You are doing the same thing. I think it should be possible to discuss large issues of autonomy without getting bogged down in examples. Do you really believe that in general, politicians and bureaucrats can take better academic decisions than professors in that university. And if there is a decision by a university which is wrong (again, I want to emphasize that I am not calling the IITR decision right or wrong), then should we go to courts for redressal or should we go to politicians. Normally, courts are very quick to provide interim relief if there is an obvious case of misuse of power.Dheeraj Sanghihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06367519409840642182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-57436908349219985882015-07-12T16:34:39.031+05:302015-07-12T16:34:39.031+05:30Respected sir
I think that IITR wants to make an e...Respected sir<br />I think that IITR wants to make an example out of this incident and they are exercising their power of autonomy for this. <br />What rights do they have to expel students? How can they ruin student's career like this? It is totally outrageous. <br />Even though IIT's are autonomous institutes but they are still under government's laws.<br />I hope that hrd ministry take away autonomous nature of IITs to prevent such misuse of power.<br />I am an IITK graduate and this incident saddens me. They should help students to improve their performance rather than discouraging them by terminating them.<br />Ravi<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05842259634520118613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-61977469043474941252015-07-12T15:28:56.346+05:302015-07-12T15:28:56.346+05:30My analysis based on my experience 25 years back i...My analysis based on my experience 25 years back is that IITs look for problem solving skills as a competency. This requires attention for details to understand a problem, concepts, ability to analyse and come up with a solution without cluttered thinking. Like this there are multiple competencies. Another I found hard was Engineering Drawing and Lab work. Unless you improve on this horizontal competency that weakness shows up course after course. In fact grading patterns will remain same at least for common courses, course after course. Testing one on subjects is like asking somebody to sing in different languages without training the voice. The other aspect I found was during semester everything was rushed through and we had too long vacations. There was too much pressure. True learning can happen only in a calm and reassuring atmosphere. This requires proactive approach with belief that everybody should have a go at it, while it not being an entitlement. The situation improved for me when I moved into department, where I could study with greater calm. Finally what is the fundamental value proposition of IITs. The way I saw it -it was just "challenging students" without strategic interlock with industry or research or career path. This is fine in some manner, but a sense of purpose is important to motivate people. That is how organizations like ISRO deliver missions without IIT engineers. We probably do need few pioneers and cream of nation, who define new disciplines. Others need some plan on path they follow. Finally IIT education should not be like marrying Duchess where honour is greater than pleasure.Shreekanth Prabhuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15019515068517549401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-79392889341945622232015-07-12T14:32:37.685+05:302015-07-12T14:32:37.685+05:30Very nicely articulated. And good to see practical...Very nicely articulated. And good to see practical suggestions for tackling the problem rather than just describing or ranting about it.Anuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09173824279783857663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-40182061407087563332015-07-12T06:37:04.149+05:302015-07-12T06:37:04.149+05:30Loved the policy of letting the students drop the ...Loved the policy of letting the students drop the courses without a penalty. <br /><br />A suggestion. It can be better if they are counselled after first month (or half a month) of bad performance that they should consider dropping the course with worst performance. This need not involve humans (as that will cause delays, ego issues, poor tracking).<br /><br />Even better, the "system" can make them choose or just plan an exit. Let them post comments which can be a flag for help, for then a counselor to step in.<br /><br />Humans are bad at choosing what is best for them. Sometimes they still make bad choices when the good choices are "obvious". They can hate another human making choice for them. It can be a PhD thesis topic to see what happens when it is a smart machine suggesting them choices (amazon, flipkart, matrimony sites). :) Why not academic courses?Nitesh Bhandarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12830040899073458582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-88525166434024892112015-07-12T06:00:08.753+05:302015-07-12T06:00:08.753+05:30@Siddharth: What is wrong with second year student...@Siddharth: What is wrong with second year students being TA's for first year courses?<br /><br />In fact, I think that this might be actually better: some of those second year students might have a much better understanding of the difficulties <em>they</em> faced with the material the year before than the instructor and the senior TAs, for whom the content of first year courses is likely to be as "obvious" as 2 + 2 = 4 at their age.<br /><br />As for "excellence", many "institutes of excellence" around the world (MIT, Caltech, Stanford, UC Berkeley, you name it) follow this model and with very good effect. It is a pity IITs have not been able to do so due to bureaucratic hurdles and I admire IIT Bombay for taking the plunge.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07201003838845846041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-26103015432358498562015-07-12T00:06:25.386+05:302015-07-12T00:06:25.386+05:30I remember in one TV interview Dr. Devi Shetty, ca...I remember in one TV interview Dr. Devi Shetty, cardiologist opined that there should be no competitive exam. like JEE, AIEEE etc. Let the students enter in the colleges of their choices. Admit them. But make the course so hard that within a few months' poor students would realize that they have misjudged the course they have undertaken. Automatically, they would leave the campus and find other courses suitable for them. This can also be thought as an alternative as it would not waste much time of their academic career. Remember in USA, corses are designed to complete degrees in 5 years.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15663771128078351469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-6678633956422678572015-07-11T22:57:13.099+05:302015-07-11T22:57:13.099+05:30@Prashant, well, we do allow since 2011 students t...@Prashant, well, we do allow since 2011 students to choose how many credits that can do without any permission from anyone (within a fairly liberal minimum and maximum limits). Semester break for any reason other than medical is still frowned upon, and I hope that too should be allowed liberally.Dheeraj Sanghihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06367519409840642182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-61372802974178013372015-07-11T22:55:08.256+05:302015-07-11T22:55:08.256+05:30@Siddharth, The 54% increase as a result of OBC re...@Siddharth, The 54% increase as a result of OBC reservation has strained resources. The infrastructure or faculty has not grown anywhere close to 54%, and now the government has cut down on plan budget drastically. But I look at the issue as an engineer. What are my inputs, what are my constraints, what are my resources, and what is the best I can do. And I am afraid, IITs (or other educational institutions) haven't done all that they could have done.Dheeraj Sanghihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06367519409840642182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-57835247438069132892015-07-11T22:32:27.866+05:302015-07-11T22:32:27.866+05:30I completely agree that putting a time-frame of 4 ...I completely agree that putting a time-frame of 4 years on the B.Tech program is rather silly - specially since within the IIT, it is counted in terms of the number of credits. <br /><br />I think students should be allowed to take over or under load as they feel like. The real smart ones can finish their degree in 3 years if they want to, while others can take more than 4 years if they so require. One can also encourage students to take a semester off, do an internship or some other valuable activity, and then come back and resume their programme. Just finish your 150-ish credits within a time frame of less than 6 years. This can help in reducing the "academic load" and students can explore their interests in more creative ways.<br /><br />But this also requires an active participation from the administration's side as well. When I was at IITK, they didn't allow general category students to take an under load or a semester break under normal circumstances.Prashanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18413405813678163163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4273139713770751485.post-73773147400820845422015-07-11T21:47:11.909+05:302015-07-11T21:47:11.909+05:30I really liked the ways you have suggested in this...I really liked the ways you have suggested in this article and the way you have without any hesitation explained the case of students coming in from relaxed criterion. I personally feel that with the implementation of OBC reservation, government increased the seats in order to have same number of general seats as before and in a very hasty manner increased the burden on the institutes which I don't think they were ready to take.In this drama of OBC and General, its the SC and ST candidates whose number increased magically . This magical increase is what has led to the present problem. I wanted to have your views also on the increased load on institutes due to this policy implementation.From my students I have heard that in IIT B that even second year students are working as TA's for first year students. Is this the way we think we can run our institutes of excellence? I fear this might further affect the global rankings of our institutes who are getting short on faculty members and getting richer in student number every year.<br />Siddharth Jainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11247226392748180538noreply@blogger.com