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Tuesday, July 7, 2015

Only one chance for NITs too?

Did you give JEE Advanced this year, and are thinking of giving JEE Advanced next year again.
Beware. Please read this carefully before accepting a seat from JOSAA.

Ever since I wrote the blog on Joint IIT/NIT Counselling and pointed the issue of not having any option of withdrawal which will mean a large number of students will lose a lot of money and those seats are likely to remain vacant, it has been pointed to me that another rule has been sneaked into the Business Rules of the Joint Counselling without any public discussion.

If you accept any seat in the joint counselling, even a seat in an NIT or another Government Funded Technical Institute (GFTI), then you are not allowed to sit for JEE Advanced in 2016.

Till now, the rule has been that if you accept an IIT seat (or ISM), then you are not allowed to give JEE Advanced next year. But if you accept an NIT or a IIIT seat, then you are allowed to give JEE Advanced next year. But that has been changed.

The Business Rule 59 under section XVII (Eligibility to Appear in JEE Advanced in Subsequent Years) on page 30 reads as follows:

Candidates who accept the allocated seat by reporting at the admitting institute or a reporting center, irrespective of whether they attend classes or not, become ineligible for JEE (Advanced) in subsequent years. 

Notice that the rule has no mention of difference between accepting an IIT seat and accepting an NIT or a GFTI seat. In fact, the emails to me claim that they have specifically with IIT JEE office and they have received in writing that the rule will be applicable even if you accept an NIT seat. (Ideally, I should be verifying this claim from an IIT myself, but I wanted to write this blog right away, since time is really short, and people may have started paying already, and hence I am believing in that claim. But if this claim is incorrect, I will be happy to issue a clarification, and bring down this blog.)

With the joint counselling this year, the gap between the "best institute" and the "worst institute" has increased so tremendously this year, that not allowing the student of that "worst" institute to improve next year is downright ridiculous and though I am not a lawyer, appears to be in violation of the Fundamental Right to Education. And doing so without pointing it out clearly to all stake holders and hiding it as one of the 60 business rules on the last page, is sinister.

I request all those who have received a non-IIT program in the first round, and are considering the option of giving JEE again in 2016, to first verify from IITs whether they will be able to give JEE Advanced 2016 next year if they accept a non-IIT seat this year.

48 comments:

Sarvesh Tiwari said...

Sir, if I accept a non IIT seat in 1st round, and in 2nd or 3rd round I don't get any desired college and I reject it....so am I eligible for JEE (adv) next year ?
Plz reply sir...

Kishore said...

Sir,

They have clearly mentioned that IIT RC & NIT RC is different. Those allocated IIT will have to report to IIT RC & those allotted NIT have to report to NIT RC..So I assume the RC mentioned in Item XVII point 59 is the IIT RC...so those allocated NIT need not worry as per my understanding...

Definition of RC

Item XVII point 43

"Candidates should report in person at a Reporting Center for document
verification before the date/time specified for document verification and
get the seat confirmed. The list of reporting centres is available on the
online portal http://josaa.nic.in.

Candidates who are allocated a seat in an NIT, IIIT (Triple-I-T) or OtherGFTI
has to report only at a reporting center of NIT, IIIT (Triple-I-T) and
Other-GFTI.

Candidates who are allocated a seat in an IIT or ISM have to report only at
a reporting center of the IITs."

Kishore said...

Dear Sir,

A candidate allocated a IIT branch/institute he/she is not interested in needs to report to a IIT RC so that he/she contiues to be in the process to get a NIT seat of choice (else he/she will be thrown out of the admissions process once for all as per the business rules)...which means just because he/she went to a IIT RC just to remain in the admissions process... he/she is being denied a chance at appearing for JEEA 2016...which is again against the basic right for improvement...these rules can be easily struck down by a court if somebody approaches it..

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Sarvesh, my own understanding of rules is that if you accept any college, any discipline, in any round, you are not eligible for JEE Advanced 2016. Please get in touch with JEE office for authentic information. (One of the readers of this blog have forwarded me a conversation between him and JEE office, where they asked JEE office this question, and JEE office confirmed that this interpretation is correct.)

Sarvesh Tiwari said...

Sir I contacted iit bombay for this and they said this if u accept a non iit seat u are eligible next year...I went to NIT also to clear this out and they also said the same thing...its a confusion now.. :(

Sarvesh Tiwari said...

what to do sir...

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Sarvesh, can you share the email from IITB.

Sarvesh Tiwari said...

Sorry Sir , but I contacted through phone....for again confirming it I called IITKGP today and they also said u are eligible .
I have sent a mail to IITB yesterday but till now there is no reply .

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Sarvesh, I have received emails from two readers of this blog sharing their conversations with JEE office, and in both cases, the JEE office is saying that such students are not eligible. I think you need to have something in writing from them if you really want to try for IITs next year.

sanjay jha said...

sir are u sure that this rule will be applied from this session onwards

siddharth jain said...

Sir what about JEE Main next year? They have stated about advanced categorically but silent on JEE MAIN reappearance?

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Sanjay, As of now, this is on. However, the hope is that if enough people protest, IITs may change their mind. So go ahead and post it on social media, write to all IITs, their Directors, JEE offices, etc., and inform any news media that you may know, and let us hope this will stop.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Siddharth, As of now, there is no issue with JEE Mains. But who knows. They may change it later. So we need to protest this anyway.

Venugopalan Kannan said...

Sir, Thanks for the blog and your views are absolutely right. I have e-mail from CSAB which says candidates who get admitted in NIT+IIIT+CFTI through JoSAA, then they are not allowed in JEE Advanced 2016 but allowed JEE Main 2016.

This rule is really unfair for the students who have not alloted any seats in IIT but admitted in NIT+IIIT+CFTI. Is there a possibility to challenge this rule?

Further CSAB confirmed that seats will remain vacant if the candidates not joining the alloted institutes even after payment & reported at RC. No refund will be made. Further there will be no spot rounds even if seats remain vacant. It seems whole objective of JOSAA will remain unfulfilled.

Arpit Midha's page said...

Sir this year there is no spot round so will the final cutoffs for nits would be largely affected and go up

Kishore said...

Sir,

After reading the above mail from Mr Kannan, it seems very clear that somebody somewhere has done his/her best to sabotage & end this JoSAA circus once for all.

gautam barua said...

I think it is not right to create a scare among students based on hearsay / interpretation. CSAB is not the authority to give views on jee (advanced). If you read the Business rule in the context it is written in, it is clearly meant for IIT seat allocations only. If not, why should it be for iit advanced only? As has been pointed out, there are two categories of reporting centres with no overlap. The wording is not context free and so there is an ambiguity.
Telling students not to opt for "lesser" institutes if they want to try for an IIT the next time is also not a responsible thing to do. A student will lose one year and his / her chances of doing better is at best 50-50.
Such scare mongering can do great damage to filling up of seats and to the career of many students.
I would also like to mention that notwithstanding there being no spot round, an institute has full rights to hold its own "spot" admission after the last date of joining is over. If a seat gets filled, then refund (minus 1000/-) has to be given. So even if a student pays fees and does not join a "lesser" institute, he /she will get the fees back if the "lesser" institute fills up that seat on its own.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Gautam, I have an email written by JEE office at IITB which says that my understanding is correct and if someone will accept a seat in NIT, s/he will not be eligible for JEE advanced.
I have talked to members of JOSAA. I have talked to a couple of IIT Directors. I have talked to a couple of NIT Directors. And no one is willing to give me in writing that such students will be eligible for JEE Advanced next year. Most of them are saying that they will not be as of today, but they are asking IIT Directors to reconsider, and some change might be announced soon.
As soon as a change in policy is announced, I will announce that on this blog as well as on all social media.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Gautam, given that this blog was written three days ago. In the last three days, I am aware of lots of Facebook pages for JEE counselling, Quora questions, and even a newspaper today, have either printed this matter as it is, or given a link to my blog. The readership has been quite large. In the last three days, all JEE offices combined must have received several emails on this issue (based on feedback that I am getting). And yet IITs are not saying that there is misunderstanding. To me, this is sufficient proof that my understanding is correct in this matter. If this was a matter of wrong interpretation, a clarification would have come on JEE Advanced and/or JOSAA website by now.

Secondly, about the refund. Let JOSAA say what you are saying. Right now JOSAA is saying that there is no refund. Yes, I know last year, anyone who wrote a letter to IIT Kanpur reminding them of the MHRD rule on refund, got back his/her money. But those who believed the website that the money is non-refundable and did not ask for money, did not get it back. Should we do things this way. The rule is that if someone asks for refund before the semester starts and the seat can be filled, then 100% refund (minus 1000 rupees) has to be given. Now, it is fair on part of JOSAA to say that we would not fill the seat even if it is trivial to fill the seat. Even last year, an early withdrawal was permitted with full refund. Why not this year. In fact, the MHRD/AICTE notice on fee refund clearly says that the institutions must maintain a waiting list before the semester begins. So JOSAA is violating the MHRD/AICTE guideline by not allowing a candidate to withdraw.

Nowhere in the blog have I said that they should not join a "lesser" institute. That is putting words in my mouth. I have only said that before you accept a seat in a "lesser" institute, and if you are thinking that you would try for IITs again next year, please get authentic information from IITs, and then take a decision whether you want to accept this seat or not. In fact, in my blog on JEE Counselling 2015, I specifically point out that trying again does not help most people, and I discourage dropping a year.

gautam barua said...

I think Josaa has done the right thing by stating that if you pay fees and accept a seat, they will not fill it up and your fees will be forfeited if you do not join. This is the only way to put pressure on students and parents to "do the right thing" - decide whether you want to join or not based on what you got and then stick to it. Otherwise, seats will remain vacant when students "chase" the "best options". JOSAA will assume the student has joined and send the money to the concerned institute. Why should JOSAA worry about a student's second thoughts, when it has given the student a choice he / she has filled in? The point I made about the refund is outside JOSAA. Why should JOSAA mention it?
Last year, CSAB tried to be friendly to students and allowed students to GIVE FRESH CHOICES after the fourth round and AGAIN, before the spot round! The result? Very few seats got filled (except for state quota seats)in many institutes till the spot round! The spot round was effectively the first and the last round! Thank god that madness has not been repeated this year. I think JOSAA has done a good job so far. Regarding the JEE Advanced issue, that can be handled over the next year and it involves only the IITs. If a majority of IITs want to give another chance, I am sure there will be no problem. It is anyway not a big issue, if you ask me. My only worry is that it becomes a big issue in a negative sense.

siddharth jain said...

I agree somewhat with Prof. BARUA. What I feel is if a student joining ISM isn't considered eligible for JEE ADVANCED previously how can extending the same rule dir accepting NITs seat be called as violation if a your fundamental right. Either it should be like the Civil Services thing where you join IRS in hope of getting IAS in next attempt or like the thing its done now. You cant be selective on your approach. After all dropping from NIT also cause a financial loss to Indian Government. And its totally absurd to allow for MAIN and debar from ADVANCED.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Gautam, the problem in leaving the decision to the next one year is this. What happens to a student who has got 'X' but does not accept. Later on, it so happens that he could have got 'Y'. He can't do anything. But now you allow such a student to sit for JEE Advanced 2016. This student can now claim that he should be given 'Y' or at least 'X' because otherwise it is unfair to him that the persons getting 'X' or 'Y' are allowed to give JEE Advanced, and someone who believed IITs and voluntarily decided not to accept, is at a loss.

As far as seats remaining vacant is concerned, this is something that I have written multiple times on this blog that the rule to refund 100% has resulted in this situation. This rule has helped only the top students, who can get options in the first round in multiple places and then take time to decide. And unless you allow financial penalty, people will not take early decision. I am also aware that the reason to not give any choice of withdrawal is that if you charge a reasonable financial penalty, the focus will be on that penalty, and if you don't charge anything, then there are problems of the kind that you point out, and arguably the safest thing to do is to forfeit all 45K saying that the seat will not be filled.

However, my way of looking at things is that if we have a completely ridiculous policy in the country, we still need to implement it irrespective of the consequences, or have guts to tell the Minister that the policy sucks. In this particular case, it is very counter-intuitive to realize that a policy which gives 100% of money back is actually causing more money to be lost, since a huge admissions are today happening after the semester begins. The airlines make a killing in this otherwise lean season because people have to be at one location today and another location tomorrow. How do you convince anyone that the policy is bad. So follow the policy. And the policy is very clear. You must do everything reasonable to have a waiting list. You must allow a student to withdraw and take next student from that waiting list. JOSAA is not doing that.

Rajesh Khanna said...

@Prof. Barua .."Why should JOSAA worry about a student's second thoughts, when it has given the student a choice he / she has filled in?"

It is the responsibility of the students to fill in only those choices which they would actually study if allotted. We have been counselling like this for years now. So one should be happy that one has got a seat which one has asked for.

However, the problem is not this but the situation at the end of this exercise whereby
'seats remain vacant but are not allotted to students who have preferentially opted for them over their current allocation'.
This scenario looks likely because of three issues in the present system viz.,

1. No refund as soon as you accept any seat.
2. Forfeiting the second attempt (if applicable) at Jee Advanced even if you accept an NIT+ system seat.
3. No Waitlist

It is understood that resolving these issues will give rise to another set of issues but none of those are likely to result in deviation from the core objective of the Counselling which to my mind is 'Matching rewards and aspirations with performance'. The present system is likely to fail in this.

disclaimer: My son is likely to be adversely affected by the above issues. He is happy with what he has got but thinks he has more chances of getting a seat matching his performance in any other set of rules.

Rajesh

Venugopalan Kannan said...

Dear Sir,
Can you please allow this Petition to displayed in your blog as it is widely read by all aspirants. Thanks

https://www.change.org/p/prof-devang-v-khakhar-director-iit-bombay-chairman-josaa-2015-smt-smriti-zubin-irani-minister-of-human-resource-development-govt-of-india-allow-cancellation-before-final-round-of-seat-allotment-through-josaa?recruiter=340839719&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=des-lg-no_src-custom_msg&fb_ref=Default

SANJAY AGARWAL said...

sir, on 11th july 2015 I talked to a person on telephone no 02225769093 given by IIT bombay regarding this issue she clearly stated that if a seat is allotted in NIT and student reports there then one is eligible to write JEE advance 2016,but if seat is allotted in IIT or ISM and one reports there then one can not write JEEADVANCE 2016.
To make myself 100% I asked some else to talk at this number the answer was same.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Sanjay, some other readers have also mentioned this earlier that on phone they gave different information, but when asked to reply by email, they gave different information. You have to go by what is available to you in writing. Why can't they put this up on the website, if so many people are confused.

SANJAY AGARWAL said...

I asked this question by sending e-mails to them but they didnt reply at all.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Sanjay, That is exactly my point. If what some person is saying on phone is correct and so many people are asking for clarifications, why not say so on email or put up the answer as a FAQ.

SANJAY AGARWAL said...

By not clearly mentioning it they are playing with the future of thousands of students

Karan Malhotra said...

See. Its not just a small matter, is it? IIT has been a religion for lakhs around India for years now. Just think of a student who lost hope of getting it towards the end of 2 or 3 or 4 years of preparation and just plans of repeating after joining a college. That student would have all of hopes vanquished now after seeing this stupid business rule. To be honest, there will be ofcourse many who would have planned it, why destroy their hopes? Why shouldn't they too try for IIT next year? And this applies even too a gfti? It would have been simple if no one had cracked jee adv after joining an NIT/GFTI. But many have. Why shouldn't a student be given the same hope now?

SANJAY AGARWAL said...

I fully agree with karan Malhotra and so we have to do something concrete to end this nonsense.We should all who are a party should keep on sending e.mails on site mentioned at josaa and also send email to MHRD.If collectively we raise voice no one can this in justice to thousands of students.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Karan and @Sanjay, the problem is that when this problem was pointed out so long ago, while many students did send mails to IITs, but a lot of people did not. I am repeatedly seeing that people wake up at the last minute, when things become that much more difficult. Now, if IITs change their rule, there would be people who would say, we did not accept the seat since we wanted to try for IITs again. Now, give us our seat back. How will IITs handle that. Good luck.

Sarvesh Tiwari said...

sir, if they want to try for IITs again why would they now ask for a seat in NIT or GFTI...
that will not be an issue...

Karan Malhotra said...

But they aren't even replying mails.

SANJAY AGARWAL said...

yesterday I sent a email to CSAB asking how can I surrender my NIT seat so that I become eligible to appear in jee advance 2016. today they replied "IF You are not allocated any IIT"S/ISM then you can give both JEE MAINS and JEE ADVANCE".

Karan Malhotra said...

Sir, I really need to know the facts straight off. Is there any other means?

Karan Malhotra said...

Sir, could you please get the correct info soon. Is tere an oter means except mails and phone call to verify this?

Karan Malhotra said...

I think Mr. Sanjay Agarwal is misleading people. Don't ake it in he wrong sense.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Sanjay, I would have been happier with a reply from JEE (Advanced) office or an IIT official.

Anuj Pathak said...

Sir actually iits should know the misery of a student who failed in getting a seat in God's technical home. Sir if possible change this seat issues and also the no. Of attempts of giving jee advanced . Sir why can't the IIT increase the attempt , if the UPSC exam has increased it why can't the IIT change it. Really IIT should take this seriously.

ashutosh yadav said...

sir since now josaa is refunding money,so does that means that a person who got a seat in any iit but did not took admission would be eligible for adv next year since his fees if now refunded

Rajat Govekar said...

said...
will this rule change?? Because many of my friends(including me) want to answer jee advance again.

Risahbh Sachdev said...

Dear Sir
I am very stressed out due to this new rule
I have joined IIITRAM( a GFTI) this year, later i realized the inferior quality of academics in this institute( and other co curricular activities) ? I Want to go to a different college next year.Am I eligible for writing JEE MAINS next year?
And what about the board % in jee mains(as i have suffered heavily due to my 89% in cbse boards)
Plz reply asap
Thank you

Kartik Mehta said...

Sir I am also having question related to this I am in nit patna but not want to study here anymore and want to join nit jaipur next year am I eligible

Anil Gupta said...

Dheeraj Sir,My son got admission in IIT Tirupati, But he didnot join. He wants to appear in JEE(adv.) 2016. I am planning to move the court to challenge the rule under which he is declared ineligible as he didnot join the allocated seat. Please let me know if it is in your knowledge as to whether any court case has been filed on the subject .

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Anil Gupta, I am not aware of any court case challenging the rule. In my opinion, it is a pretty stupid rule. Individual IITs should be able to look at past data and see how many students drop out after accepting admission, and admit approximately that many more.

Sai Phanith said...

Sir,I am studying at NIT Trichy (Instrumentation branch ),can i get an admission to other nit's after writing jee main this year .
my friends say that if we are already in nit then we cant go other nit next year
please clarify my doubt ASAP
Thanking you sir.

Dheeraj Sanghi said...

@Sai Phanith, I haven't looked at the business rules of this year. Last year, they had said no, but later on, after interference of MHRD Minister, some changes were made (like refunds). I don't know if this is one of those changes.